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The new and "improved" Viconia romance.


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#41 Plasmocat

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:42 PM

It is also interesting, that you seem to know my sexual preferences and the way I feel about men in generally without knowing me in person. I am not obliged to explain these things to you though, and I will not.


Well, it's easy to assume attributes about you because you're not as real as Viconia, Bri. None of us on this board are. Aren't you aware that we're supposed to know that Longinus knows best about everything? Judging from all of his blanket statments, it's painfully obvious that he knows what's going on in all of our minds and hearts better than we do ourselves.

We're supposed to be doing as he says, not as he does. Better straighten up there, Missy! All of us better, or face the impending disintegration of society as we know it. Next thing you know we'll be eating rocks and fighting cats for territory or something equally horrible. And it'll be our own danged fault!

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#42 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:50 PM

It is also interesting, that you seem to know my sexual preferences and the way I feel about men in generally without knowing me in person.

And what I really don't share is the opinion, that there should be someone to say what kind of mods people should make or should not make.

So there should be no boundaries as to what modders can and cannot make? I see.

As for you, I've been here long enough to become familiar with the various types of people who call this community home. If I made an assumption about you it would probably be close to the truth.

I've always wondered why male players won't even consider romancing any of the available romanceable male characters in BG2 when female players are all too eager to romance female characters. Doesn't "role playing" work both ways? I don't suppose I have to wonder why there's such a huge demand for female-female romances anymore, however. What happened to all the straight women? I guess this phenomenom goes with the territory.

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 01:53 PM.

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#43 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:51 PM

You defeat your own argument here because you make it abundantly clear that you can see no other possible role for bisexual people apart from fulfilling sexual fantasies.

I never wrote that. I wrote that making Viconia bisexual would be the equivalent of turning her into someone's fantasy -- someone's ideal version of her. If this had nothing to do with sex, or fulfilling a desire, then why make her bisexual?
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#44 SimDing0

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:55 PM

I never wrote that. I wrote that making Viconia bisexual would be the equivalent of turning her into someone's fantasy -- someone's ideal version of her. If this had nothing to do with sex, or fulfilling a desire, then why make her bisexual?

Who are you to judge people's motivations? Is it inconceivable that they write a lesbian romances for any reason other than personal fantasy?

JCompton wrote Kelsey as a romance for women. By your reasonning... this is so he can achieve his fantasy of a gay romance with himself? Your assertions just don't hold tight.

My other arguments stand.

Edited by SimDing0, 18 August 2004 - 01:55 PM.

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#45 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:10 PM

Is it inconceivable that they write a lesbian romances for any reason other than personal fantasy?

JCompton wrote Kelsey as a romance for women. By your reasonning... this is so he can achieve his fantasy of a gay romance with himself?

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses. What other reason is there for changing Viconia in such a manner other than to appease the desires of gamers drooling over the mere thought of Viconia having a fling with another woman? Enlighten me.
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#46 SimDing0

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:15 PM

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses.

So you're saying people's motivations only matter if they involve altering a character to be bisexual? That sounds pretty prejudiced against bisexuality to me.

What other reason is there for changing Viconia in such a manner other than to appease the desires of gamers drooling over the mere thought of Viconia having a fling with another woman? Enlighten me.

1) This is a role-playing game. If your character reflects entirely how you feel in real-life, you should probably go and buy Quake 3.
2) But I suspect lesbians play BG2 anyway.
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#47 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:28 PM

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses.

So you're saying people's motivations only matter if they involve altering a character to be bisexual? That sounds pretty prejudiced against bisexuality to me.

That's not what I meant at all. What I mean is there's a difference between creating your own character and rewriting an official one to better suit someone's needs.
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#48 SimDing0

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:32 PM

That's not what I meant at all. What I mean is there's a difference between creating your own character and rewriting an official one to better suit someone's needs.

But you've made it quite clear that you see it as "suiting someone's needs" only because it involves bisexuality. This indicates two things.
1) If I made a mod in which I changed Viconia to a non-romance character, you would not consider this to "suit my needs" or "fulfill my fantasy". Therefore, it is the bisexual element that triggers this view.
2) You therefore consider bisexuality in a different light to heterosexuality, since it is this alone that causes you to pursue tu "fantasy" argument. Hence, the suggestion of prejudice.

Edited by SimDing0, 18 August 2004 - 02:34 PM.

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#49 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:40 PM

Hence, the suggestion of prejudice.

It's no secret that many men and apparently most of the women who populate the BG2 modding community would prefer it if Viconia was bisexual. Turning Viconia into something she isn't for these people who see a bisexual Viconia as ideal is a poor justification.

My opposition to this mod isn't motivated by prejudice.
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#50 Briannandoah

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:45 PM

So there should be no boundaries as to what modders can and cannot make? I see.

As for you, I've been here long enough to become familiar with the various types of people who call this community home. If I made an assumption about you it would probably be close to the truth.

I've always wondered why male players won't even consider romancing any of the available romanceable male characters in BG2 when female players are all too eager to romance female characters. Doesn't "role playing" work both ways? I don't suppose I have to wonder why there's such a huge demand for female-female romances anymore, however. What happened to all the straight women? I guess this phenomenom goes with the territory.

No, I see no boundaries.

And what comes to the thing that men don't wont to play a woman in the game romancing Anomen (or any of the mod romances for the female PCs), well I kind of am amazed by it, since I know (at least) one (yes heterosexual) man who does this. So, yes, in my point of view role playing works both ways, and it should work both ways. Since it is supposed to be fun. :blink:

Plasmo: :wall: (I suppose now I am either lesbian or bisexual horny female who wants to have a go with the goddess Viconia :P :rolleyes: ).
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#51 SimDing0

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:47 PM

It's no secret that many men and apparently most of the women who populate the BG2 modding community would prefer it if Viconia was bisexual.

That says nothing of their motivations.
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#52 Andyr

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:08 PM

So there should be no boundaries as to what modders can and cannot make? I see.

I don't think there should be boundaries. If a modder wants to make it, make it... Chances are someone else will want to play it too.
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#53 Immortality

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:15 PM

Ehm... Andy, there should boundaries... like... no child pornography or rapings... but yeah, i see your point and i agree :)
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#54 Andyr

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:19 PM

Hmmm. I think if someone wants to make something a little obscene, they still should, though they may have a hard time finding somewhere to host it. ;)
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#55 -PsychoX-

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 04:29 PM

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love. Write a new character; don't rewrite an old one who conforms with your own personal vision of them.

Forgive me for thinking that the purpose of this mod was to make some drastic changes to Viconia's character in order to make her receptive to a romantic fling with another female, or am I missing something here? Why else would you make such changes if not to explore that *non-existent* side of Viconia's character? What else would inspire the creation of this mod other than to see Viconia lust after another women? Romance? That's a difference that makes no difference. People will download this mod just to see Viconia buckle under the pressure of a constant bombardment of female affection. After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women. Whatever.

I don't see how a female character engaging in a romance with Viconia would be believable. The official Viconia doesn't show any signs of being sexually attracted to women at all. If the real Viconia isn't interested in other women, then why change her into something she is not? Surely a sexually aggressive woman such a Viconia would've expressed an interest in women before now if she actually burned with desire for them?

I'm not against homosexual romance mods per se. I'm just against modders thinking they can alter the fabric of an NPC's identity without giving their original character any consideration. So far, mods have added a homosexual facet to the personalities of Imoen, and Solaufein (even Nalia has shared this fate). Who's next? Where do we draw the line? Modders have turned these characters into their own personal yet distorted vision of them instead of doing everything in their power to keep these characters as true to their original counterparts as possible. From what we know about Viconia, she isn't bisexual. That's the crux of my argument.

I'm curious: how many female gamers will download this mod for the friendship alone? A friendship with Viconia is a good idea. Good luck getting Viconia to open up though.

Yeah, they kill each other for positions of power; in contrast, they use men as tools to achieve their goals. You could say that Viconia would have more respect for women, but she can't help loving men. You're seeing homosexual leanings where there isn't any.

If Viconia was bisexual, why would she search for comfort from a gender she was taught to regard as inferior (men)? Her love/hate relationship with men and the fact that she cannot change who she is in that respect or ignore her desires is an integral part of her character. A friendship with another women would be more believable than a romance with one.

Ooh, such delicious fire! What lovely indignation! Shower me with it please, as I love the venting of pent up aggression. :)

Yeah, males. :) Viconia calls Jaheira a "half breed mongrel" in one of their conversations, but I will concede this point.

I never said that. I just think if you want to change an official character into a raving homosexual, you need some proof to justify that change. I'm sure people of every sexual persuasion inhabit the Forgotten Realms, but I'm equally sure that Viconia isn't among those who would call themselves bisexual.

Actually, I just think that this community is far too liberal for its own good. Even back when the community was thriving on the old BioWare boards, the vast majority of people openly condemned anyone who didn't appreciate Weimer ruining Solaufein's orginal character. He went too far. When I argued that Imoen couldn't possibly be bisexual on a certain message board I was banned almost immediately. So much for tolerance (though after reading the official BG2 novel I'm not so sure about Imoen anymore). Other than Miss Kitty and Riona, I receive the distinct impression that there aren't any straight women in this community, so you probably feel right at home. For what it's worth, good luck with your mod.

Longinus, for what I can read in your post you deeply fell for Viconia and even considering that Viconia could be a more complex character than you thought is rather threatening to you and your ego, to the point that you would use words like pornography where none is implied.

About being a homophobe, that is indeed is evident; if you weren't the idea of exploring a possible different sexual orientation for that character or any character in general would not be an issue as it would be just a mere excersice in depth and psychological contrast.

You did not think Imoen was bisexual and the official novels made her be bisexual, so that opened the possibility to challenge the initial perception of all the BG characters. And thus challenging Viconia's sexuality is fair exploration.

The challenge to the author of this Viconia mod would be to explore her as a possible bisexual woman and still retaining the chore of the original character. And Viconia is more than just a heterosexual woman, just pointing your argument even before you voice it, and as long as those are retained the chore of the character would remain even if it is with an alteration.

#56 Longinus

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 05:18 PM

...considering that Viconia could be a more complex character than you thought is rather threatening to you and your ego...

About being a homophobe, that is indeed is evident; if you weren't the idea of exploring a possible different sexual orientation for that character or any character in general would not be an issue...

Sorry man, but I'm not afraid of homosexuals in the least, and thus, cannot be homophobic in the true sense of the word. Why does opposing the idea of changing Viconia into something she clearly isn't automatically mean I'm homophobic to you?

There's no point in arguing anymore, as nearly everyone is convinced that Viconia is in fact bisexual and that straight women don't actually exist. In the light of this blind and unquestioning acceptance it would almost be pointless to continue.

I think we can safely add Viconia to the list of official characters ruined by a modder's wanton desire to recreate those characters in their own image.
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#57 Immortality

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:45 AM

Why didn't you post this at G3?

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea. The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.



He did post at g3, the matter is in the 1st posts...
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#58 SimDing0

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 02:02 AM

There's no point in arguing anymore, as nearly everyone is convinced that Viconia is in fact bisexual and that straight women don't actually exist. In the light of this blind and unquestioning acceptance it would almost be pointless to continue.

This claim is clearly contradicted, because throughout the thread my argument has never touched on the idea of Bioware Viconia being bisexual. I don't know or care if she was intended to be. So, if you'd like to continue addressing my argument instead of either summarising it in a completely different light, or quoting only the portions that suit you and ignoring the rest, you're more than welcome to. On the other hand, you've so far succeeded in doing both of the above.
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#59 -Guest-

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 02:09 AM

Sorry man, but I'm not afraid of homosexuals in the least, and thus, cannot be homophobic in the true sense of the word.

The dictionary defines homophobia as, to paraphrase, "the fear or contempt of homosexuals and behaviour based on such a feeling". You don't have to be afraid to be a homophobe.

#60 Andyr

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 04:30 AM

Why didn't you post this at G3?

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea. The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.



He did post at g3, the matter is in the 1st posts...

I don't think he did - http://forums.gibber...wtopic=513&st=0
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