105 replies to this topic

[Thorium Dragon]

... the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.

If you are planning a mod you are already in the "fold". It's everybody's "fold". There is no inside or outside to it.

If one person (including the authors) enjoys a mod it has fulfilled it's purpose.

As I said in a past argument along much the same lines, this is a forum dedicated to modding the game. Our goal should always be to encourage the creation of more content not less.

I don't think it is right to say that a mod should not exist. However I think it is perfectly fine to play a mod and write an honest review of it. Write a scathing review of a mod if you think it sucked and give constructive criticism. That would be more beneficial (although perhaps a bit rude) then condemning an uncompleted project outright.

What you don't like- don't play. What you don't play- don't complain about.

[Longinus]

Is there a particular reason you've completely ignored my line of argument?

You mean this:

Why the fuck does it matter if you change the characterisation of an NPC?

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love. Write a new character; don't rewrite an old one who conforms with your own personal vision of them.

Excuse me, but how is making her bisexual = making her 'sleep with anything' or make this mod a 'pornographic work'?

Forgive me for thinking that the purpose of this mod was to make some drastic changes to Viconia's character in order to make her receptive to a romantic fling with another female, or am I missing something here? Why else would you make such changes if not to explore that *non-existent* side of Viconia's character? What else would inspire the creation of this mod other than to see Viconia lust after another women? Romance? That's a difference that makes no difference. People will download this mod just to see Viconia buckle under the pressure of a constant bombardment of female affection. After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women. Whatever.

Would you say the same thing about Harry Potter fan fiction that depicts our hero Harry in a relationship with Draco Malfoy? Or maybe Ginny Weasely in a loving and sexual relationship with Hermione Granger? Or would you say the same about other kinds of slash pairings? Dax/Kira? Picard/Riker? Tom/Harry? Xena/Gabrielle? Sam Carter/Janet Fraiser?

I don't see how a female character engaging in a romance with Viconia would be believable. The official Viconia doesn't show any signs of being sexually attracted to women at all. If the real Viconia isn't interested in other women, then why change her into something she is not? Surely a sexually aggressive woman such a Viconia would've expressed an interest in women before now if she actually burned with desire for them?

...this isn't the first time you've argued against homosexuality/bisexuality in a mod?

I'm not against homosexual romance mods per se. I'm just against modders thinking they can alter the fabric of an NPC's identity without giving their original character any consideration. So far, mods have added a homosexuspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netal facet to the personalities of Imoen, and Solaufein (even Nalia has shared this fate). Who's next? Where do we draw the line? Modders have turned these characters into their own personal yet distorted vision of them instead of doing everything in their power to keep these characters as true to their original counterparts as possible. From what we know about Viconia, she isn't bisexual. That's the crux of my argument.

This mod is not porn. It's not even going near porn...

I'm curious: how many female gamers will download this mod for the friendship alone? A friendship with Viconia is a good idea. Good luck getting Viconia to open up though.

Yes, there's a much more subtle power struggle that goes on between female drow...

Yeah, they kill each other for positions of power; in contrast, they use men as tools to achieve their goals. You could say that Viconia would have more respect for women, but she can't help loving men. You're seeing homosexual leanings where there isn't any.

And even if this mod was just to expand a friendship with a female, would you object and say it makes that part of her story meaningless?

If Viconia was bisexual, why would she search for comfort from a gender she was taught to regard as inferior (men)? Her love/hate relationship with men and the fact that she cannot change who she is in that respect or ignore her desires is an integral part of her character. A friendship with another women would be more believable than a romance with one.

No, I call it subtext... And I already said that subtext is subjective. What I see in the lines I quoted, it's obvious that you don't see it.

Ooh, such delicious fire! What lovely indignation! Shower me with it please, as I love the venting of pent up aggression.

Umm... she still romances half-elf males

Yeah, males. Viconia calls Jaheira a "half breed mongrel" in one of their conversations, but I will concede this point.

And because you are of the opinion that unless we see it, it doesn't exist - that means according to you no one in the Forgotten Realms (of computer games) is bisexual or homosexual.

I never said that. I just think if you want to change an official character into a raving homosexual, you need some proof to justify that change. I'm sure people of every sexual persuasion inhabit the Forgotten Realms, but I'm equally sure that Viconia isn't among those who would call themselves bisexual.

It wouldn't matter if people tollerated it or not. I'm not doing this for everyone else out there, I'm doing it for me. What next? You want people to come out and send hate mail to the dirty lezzy mod writer?

Actually, I just think that this community is far too liberal for its own good. Even back when the community was thriving on the old BioWare boards, the vast majority of people openly condemned anyone who didn't appreciate Weimer ruining Solaufein's orginal character. He went too far. When I argued that Imoen couldn't possibly be bisexual on a certain message board I was banned almost immediately. So much for tolerance (though after reading the official BG2 novel I'm not so sure about Imoen anymore). Other than Miss Kitty and Riona, I receive the distinct impression that there aren't any straight women in this community, so you probably feel right at home. For what it's worth, good luck with your mod.

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 08:52 AM.

[SimDing0]

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love. Write a new character; don't rewrite an old one who conforms with your own personal vision of them.

The character YOU know and love. Some people find the character of Viconia, Mellissan, or the Chinchilla rather lacking, so they choose to adjust/rewrite it, given that there's No Reason Why Not To™.

I'm sure it'd be very hurtful to you to have the character of the Chinchilla you know and love to be altered, but seriously, people are fairly likely to prefer the new version to the old. So... far from the argument being over before it started, you've actually made a very subjective proclamation.

Edited by SimDing0, 18 August 2004 - 08:51 AM.

[Longinus]

I don't think it is right to say that a mod should not exist.  However I think it is perfectly fine to play a mod and write an honest review of it.  Write a scathing review of a mod if you think it sucked and give constructive criticism.  That would be more beneficial (although perhaps a bit rude) then condemning an uncompleted project outright.

I'd rather not see this mod come to fruition; it has no place in the modding community as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of people want Viconia to be bisexual because Baldur's Gate 2 somehow planted the seed of her being a no-hold bars porn star in their minds. In other words, everyone wants her to be bisexual merely because she has a pretty portrait. Now their dreams have come true. Now she *is* bisexual because some mod made her so.

Is that what this community has become? Does no one have any sense of integrity? Expanding Viconia's character is one thing; making her everyone's wet dream is another.

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 09:01 AM.

[Longinus]

The character YOU know and love. Some people find the character of Viconia, Mellissan, or the Chinchilla rather lacking, so they choose to adjust/rewrite it, given that there's No Reason Why Not To™.

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

This mod defeats the purpose of accepting Viconia for who she is (i.e. a heterosexual Drow female who isn't as evil as she appears or is more evil than you can imagination if she isn't guided out of the darkness of her own inner turmoil).

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 09:06 AM.

[Plasmocat]

Two thoughts for consideration:

?Censorship reflects a society?s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .? ? Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)

?Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.? ? U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856?1941), Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357 (1927)

When approaching the prospect of whether to prevent anyone from saying/writing/creating something that goes against your own idea of what a social "norm" is, it would be important to consider what your real goals are and to consider how much you have to do to achieve them.

If your goal is not to be offended, then maybe you shouldn't read or view the item in question.

If your goal is not to offend the community at large, then you're better off letting the item in question stand or fall on its own merits rather than making it into an item of curiosity which ppl who wouldn't ordinarily be interested decide to check out in order to see what all the commotion is about.

If the community ends up agreeing with your opinion, the piece in question will wither away from neglect and disinterest. If the community finds the piece exciting and interesting then it can be argued that further pursuit of forcing your opinions on the community is not so much in the community's best interest as it is indulging your own sense of vanity. Anyone who tries to force any sort of morality on a resistant public isn't acting for the public good. They are trying to make everyone see how "right" they are.

Take a look at the 100 most challenged/banned books between 1990/2000 and you'll see books like "The Color Purple," "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn," "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings," "The Catcher in the Rye," "Cujo," "Of Mice and Men," "The Handmaid's Tale," and the Harry Potter series.

What makes these books so objectionable? The fact that some of them deal with emotionally-charged issues, or with violence? Or because maybe they treat old superstitions as entertainment?

Who gets to draw the line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable? Why should anyone one person or small group be allowed to make those kinds of decisions for ppl whose values they don't reflect at all?

There are two things about this complaint that really strike me.

#1 Homosexuality might make you uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it unnatural. Writers of romances dealing with any gender preference can make the material sexually explicit. Writers of romances dealing with any gender preference can make the material more about the emotions than the physical, as well. The gender preferences of the characters involved is not going to increase or decrease the sexual content necessarily. In a well-written story, all it's going to do is give the story a different sort of perspective.

So, really the issue here isn't about sexual content, otherwise the argument would include heterosexual romances that go the explicit route.

This argument is about fear and a desire for others to see how right you think you obviously are.

#2 The other thing that strikes me is the way that ppl just cannot let these characters be or grow into something that the original writers might not have considered. Being different from the original does not make a mod better or worse.

People write mods to have fun and to express the creativity within them. People who play mods should also be having fun, which means not playing those mods that don't interest them. If that means non-canon works are not appealing, that's cool. But don't assume that you are right and the artist is wrong wrong wrong for wanting to take a different route.

If a mod is bad or unpopular, it'll fade away. Why waste your energy being so negative toward the ppl who make those mods? Chances are they weren't *trying* to offend anyone, so what purpose does it serve to be so harsh on them? The only way anyone learns how to be good at something is to practice the skill. Why discourage anyone's talent by telling them how bad they are or how wrong they are rather than letting them figure out how to find their feet and get better at what they're doing?

Tolerance is a good thing ... and that goes for gender preference or canon faithfulness. It's all part of the same animal, imho.

You get better results by making constructive suggestions and by encouraging ppl to utitlize their talents than by totally destroying ppl's will to contribute anything by tearing down their ideas simply because they don't conform to what you think should be considered "obviously" right.

Or is it just that different is always bad?

[Plasmocat]

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

You *are* aware that Viconia isn't a real person, but a character in a game ... right?

[Longinus]

If the community ends up agreeing with your opinion, the piece in question will wither away from neglect and disinterest. If the community finds the piece exciting and interesting then it can be argued that further pursuit of forcing your opinions on the community is not so much in the community's best interest as it is indulging your own sense of vanity. Anyone who tries to force any sort of morality on a resistant public isn't acting for the public good. They are trying to make everyone see how "right" they are.

Unfortunately, I'm in the minority here, so most of the community isn't going to agree with me. Almost everyone is already convinced that Viconia is the uninhibited concubine of the Drow.

Writing a mod shouldn't just reflect what the community at large wants, but what we can reasonably expect from the expansion of anyone's character. My opinion has nothing to do with concepts of right and wrong. This mod isn't within reason: it serves to satisfy a desire. Nothing more, nothing less. Making Viconia bisexual turns her into a living lie. Plain and simple.

Will that stop people from downloading the mod? No.

[Archmage Silver]

Well... I dunno what to say. I, personally, do not object such a mod but I wouldn't download it either. Ah, maybe it is like cousin Gibby used to say "It is in our nature to question everything that we don't agree with." As it is said "It is the nature of the beast".

[Longinus]

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

You *are* aware that Viconia isn't a real person, but a character in a game ... right?

You missed my point. You can't change a real person into someone you want them to be any more than you can change an original character in BG2. See my point? This mod is just changing Viconia into someone players want her to be (bisexual) rather than keeping her true to her original character, which speaks volumes about the fading integrity of the modding community.

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 10:57 AM.

[Bri]

Admittedly, I couldn't make it through the abominable novelizations of BG I and II. However, I thought I recall people putting up that Imoen was a lesbian in those books?

The only reason I bring it up tangentially in this Viconia topcs is that if in the books (which are considered canon to the world of the Forgotten Realms) has Imoen as lesbian, then it is fair for a module to develop an aspect of her character to be that way, and using her as an example against changing a character isn't as strong.

Edited by Bri, 18 August 2004 - 10:58 AM.

[Plasmocat]

You missed my point. You can't change a real person into someone you want them to be any more than you can change an original character in BG2. See my point? This mod is just changing Viconia into someone players want her to be (bisexual) rather than keeping her true to her original character, which speaks volumes about the fading integrity of the modding community.

And you missed mine. A well-written story, mod or otherwise will be able to stand on its own merits, regardless of the original writer's intentions. (fan fiction writers are hardly the first writers to use characters created by other artists, btw. Look at myths & legends, or just looks at Robin Hood, or Arthurian, or even Cinderella-based stories to name a few examples) It's actually the mark of a well-written character that can flourish under the treatment of a variety of perspectives, not proof that those writing the variety of perspectives are bad writers. Unless their writing is bad on its own, of course.

A badly-written story is going to stink whether it's faithful to cannon or not. A well-written story can elevate even a mediocre concept to a higher standard.

To narrow an interpretation of any fictional character to your own opinion devalues the intentions of most writers and lessens your own understanding of the fullness that character can embody.

If you really *were* talking about a real person, maybe your point could have a little validity, although historical figures have also been interpreted subjectively to suit works of fiction as well.

But you're not talking about a real person. You're talking about a fictional character about whom we only know what was told in the story. You think that what we're not told limits what we should understand about her, but I doubt that was the intention behind her lack of 900 pg. bestselling memoirs. What we're not told, as readers & players we imagine ... just as you did when you played her. Most writers are enthusiastic when ppl have varied and complicated interpretations of their characters even if it's not something they deliberately wrote into the character. I don't know whether the BG writers would feel the same way ... but my point is that you can't stop ppl from being creative whether they commit their ideas to mod or paper or not. And why would you want to? Why do you need that kind of control over the thoughts and ideas of others? What is it about these alternate ideas that makes you feel so threatened?

Which leads me to my next question:

Will that stop people from downloading the mod? No.

So, other than a spirited and almost controversial thread in which you are the center of attention ... what do you intend to accomplish with objections you have apparently made on other threads?

To make other ppl agree with you? Why do they have to?

[Briannandoah]

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love.

- - -

People will download this mod just to see Viconia buckle under the pressure of a constant bombardment of female affection. After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women. Whatever.

- - -

I'm curious: how many female gamers will download this mod for the friendship alone? A friendship with Viconia is a good idea. Good luck getting Viconia to open up though.

- - -

Actually, I just think that this community is far too liberal for its own good.

I know I should not feed the troll... for this is how I see these posts Longinus has written. But I can't resist, I'm that stupid :bash:

Who are "We"? I very much doupt that my view of the original NPCs differs either a lot or at least somewhat from the viewpoints of others. I dislike the use of "Us" in arguments, because if there isn't a group behind them, then they are only one person's opinions. If you would say "I", it wouldn't bother me so much.

And excuse me, what! "After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women." Is this just a point to get people mad, is it sarcastic or are you for real? I would believe it is ment as sarcasm, but in the context you write it, it doesn't feel that way. If it IS sarcasm, then forgive me if I ask, that how do you know what is in women's minds?

And yes, I will load this mod for the friendship my female character can have with Viconia. And since I, too, don't see Viconia as bisexual (heck, to me even Jaheira is more bisexual), I doupt I will never get into romancing her with a female PC. I have romanced her with a male PC, and that is enough for me.

And I like that this community is liberal. If it weren't I wouldn't hang here anymore.

[Immortality]

I'd rather not see this mod come to fruition; it has no place in the modding community as far as I'm concerned.

I mean... so what if they complete it? Why does this hurt you so much? Im sure there will be a lot of people who like it and will want to play it, why would you prevent them from doing so?

[SimDing0]

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

This mod defeats the purpose of accepting Viconia for who she is (i.e. a heterosexual Drow female who isn't as evil as she appears or is more evil than you can imagination if she isn't guided out of the darkness of her own inner turmoil).

Viconia isn't a real person, and as much as you'd like to argue that it doesn't make any difference, it does. You're right, I can't change a real person. However, I CAN change Viconia... look, I just did. So, given the chance, why shouldn't I make the game more fun?

[Longinus]

What is it about these alternate ideas that makes you feel so threatened?

You're reading into my posts too much. I don't feel threatened -- I just feel that modders are going too far with their ideas.

Forgive me if I have no desire to see modders turn Viconia into a shadow of her former self. This mod isn't a product of creativity so much as it is the product of desire. Plain and simple.

You keep trying to villify me as if I have no right to object to this premise. As if I'm the one who's wrong. Wake up.

I know I should not feed the troll...

Just because my opinions conflict with yours doesn't automatically mean I'm a troll. If attacking the lone voice of dissent makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means continue to do so.

If it IS sarcasm, then forgive me if I ask, that how do you know what is in women's minds?

Is this the part where you start harping on about how all women are bisexual?

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Not all women are sexually attracted to other women. That's a fact of life, believe it or not. Viconia shows no signs of finding other women sexually attractive, which leads us back to my original point: writing her to be bisexual simply wouldn't be believable.

Not that it's relevant, but I have dated women and I do have a girlfriend whom I understand very well. She's straight by the way. I couldn't change her sexuality even if I wanted to, and I don't. Contrary to popular opinion, and much to your chagrin, men can be very good at understanding women.

I mean... so what if they complete it? Why does this hurt you so much? Im sure there will be a lot of people who like it and will want to play it, why would you prevent them from doing so?

Because the mod is a bad idea. Because it's not true to the original character. You name it. The tragedy is people will actually think that this new and improved Viconia is a true representation of her original character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Viconia isn't a real person, and as much as you'd like to argue that it doesn't make any difference, it does. You're right, I can't change a real person. However, I CAN change Viconia... look, I just did. So, given the chance, why shouldn't I make the game more fun?

You can change her into someone more suited to your needs, but you'll never change her official character. Only the creators of the game have the right to do that. In real life you have to accept people for who they are; why not do the same with Viconia? Why not keep her true to her original character?

I'm all for believable mods, but this isn't one of them.

Edited by Longinus, 18 August 2004 - 12:44 PM.

[SimDing0]

You can change her into someone more suited to your needs, but you'll never change her official character.

Right. And... why should I care what her official character is again? I buy the game for me to play, not so I can pander to Bioware's sometimes-less-than-adequate writing.
Apply the same logic you apply to Viconia to Bondari. You're really saying that making Bondari NOT "Reload" is criminal because it goes against the developers? That's rather a ludicrous suggestion.

Only the creators of the game have the right to do that.

I'm sorry, I see nowhere that defers my right to alter official characters. As above, I want my game to be better to play, and if that means fixing Bioware's inadequacies, then fine.

Incidentally, no, I don't consider Bioware's Viconia characterisation inadequate, but that is irrelevant; I argue on principle.

In real life you have to accept people for who they are; why not do the same with Viconia?

Viconia is not alive. I have the physical ability to change her. Believe me, I'd alter the characters of some people in real life given the chance.

Why not keep her true to her original character?

Because it makes the game more fun for me? I'll turn it around... why keep to her original character when I can potentially have a better character? It's rather a shame to limit people's ability to make alterations using the ridiculous proposition that altering Bioware's writing will in some way hurt them, corrupt my children, or blow up the world.

I'm all for believable mods, but this isn't one of them.

Set aside your obsession with her original character for a minute. What's not believable about Viconia being bi? THOSE are the arguments that count.

[Briannandoah]

You can change her into someone more suited to your needs, but you'll never change her official character. Only the creators of the game have the right to do that. In real life you have to accept people for who they are; why not do the same with Viconia? Why not keep her true to her original character?

And I say that only the creators of the game and the one who wrote Viconia really has anything to say about her and her personality, because he (I assume it is he) is the only one who knows what he ment her to be.

It is also interesting, that you seem to know my sexual preferences and the way I feel about men in generally without knowing me in person. I am not obliged to explain these things to you though, and I will not.

Yes I wrote an edgy answer to your post, because I reflected your posts the way I see them. I don't share your opinions about this mod, even if I share the opinion, that Viconia is not a bisexual. And what I really don't share is the opinion, that there should be someone to say what kind of mods people should make or should not make. I do not believe in any kind of canonization, either. But since we have very diffenrent opinions about this, as I understand it, I don't think there will ever be a fruitfull solution to this conversation.

[Longinus]

What's not believable about Viconia being bi?

Ooh, such delicious fire.

Nothing in the games suggests she is bisexual. Nothing. All other reasons for why she should be bisexual stem from people wanting her to be so.

If Viconia's sexuality is changed then she ceases to be Viconia.

Expanding Viconia's character could make her more rewarding, as you say, but making drastic changes to her character like making her bisexual would turn her into someone else in the process -- a walking, talking fantasy, you could say.

Just because she's aggressively sexual, doesn't mean she's bisexual either.

[SimDing0]

Nothing in the games suggests she is bisexual. Nothing. All other reasons for why she should be bisexual stem from people wanting her to be so.

Okay, so let's add something to the game that suggests she is. There. The game makes sense now.

If Viconia's sexuality is changed then she ceases to be Viconia.

She ceases to be your Viconia. Within the context of the game, she's still Viconia. And I'll ask directly: are you prepared to extend your line of reasonning to things which really DO suck like the Chinchilla and Bondari?

Expanding Viconia's character could make her more rewarding, as you say, but making drastic changes to her character like making her bisexual would turn her into someone else in the process -- a walking, talking fantasy, you could say.

You defeat your own argument here because you make it abundantly clear that you can see no other possible role for bisexual people apart from fulfilling sexual fantasies. I don't think I need to point out what's wrong here.