28 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

In the forgotten Realms, can you cast Raise Dead or Resurection successfully on a person who died without having faith in any patron god?

What can stop Resurection?

[Efreet]

I think it takes ressurection or wish to bring the person back. (and you should hurry with it because Kelemvor's realm isn't a nice place to sit and wait (especially once the locals realise that no god is going to pick you up.)

As for stopping ressurection, I guess it would be any effects that trap the dead person's soul, such as demilich soul gems.

[Xander77]

Isn't there some kind of wall of eternal suffering built out of the souls of the faithless?

Bah, FR cosmology sucks anyway...

[Bane]

I do believe the wall of faithless was taken down after Cyric was overthrown and Kelemvor took over.

FR cosmology is quite weird tbh

[Echon]

I do not recall reading anywhere that not worshipping a god prevents someone from being brought back to life. That still does not mean it cannot be the case.

-Echon

[icelandismine]

According to the 3rd edition FR campgin setting sourcebook, in which Kelemvor is the god of the dead, the wall is stll up. If you die, and have no faith, or if you betrayed your faith, then you have about a day to be ressurected or raised normally. After that, you have been brought to the City of the Dead, and that is bad. You need a wish or miracle spell to bring you back then.

[Arachnos]

Well in my opinion I think we need to look at a couple of things. For it to work i think:

1. The soul has to want to come back (but seeing as how the faithless get cemented into the wall for a stretch of eternal suffering i dont think that's gonna be a problem).

2. Short of using a 'wish', the other alternatives are all clerical in nature, which means you're gonna have to run it past your god. The thing is, why would your god care about bringing back someone who is'nt a believer??

Cleric of X to party: 'Never fear, I'll cast 'miracle', true resurrection' etc.

God X: Not with my divine power you don't matey!!

[BobTokyo]

According to the 3rd edition FR campgin setting sourcebook, in which Kelemvor is the god of the dead, the wall is stll up. If you die, and have no faith, or if you betrayed your faith, then you have about a day to be ressurected or raised normally. After that, you have been brought to the City of the Dead, and that is bad. You need a wish or miracle spell to bring you back then.

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for.

Thanks as well to all who replied.

[Bri]

Just be careful where you apply it. I don't have books handy, but sometimes there are differences in content in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition.

Edited by Bri, 16 August 2004 - 10:13 AM.

[BobTokyo]

Just be careful where you apply it.  I don't have books handy, but sometimes there are differences in content in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition.

There's a point in a dialog I'm working on involving a girl who commited suicide. Her familly is not poor. The tragedy is lessened if they could just go to the Temple district and have her brought back. So, as long as it does not conflict with Forgotten Realms lore as established in the BG1&2 games or official FR lore, in this case I'd say that she died without faith, and therefore is beyond any known form of Resurection available in Athkathla.

If FR lore does allow even the faithless to be easilly brought back, I'll have to find some other way to keep her "out of reach." Maybe because she doesn't want to return or something, but that may reduce the emotional value of the story.

[Bri]

If FR lore does allow even the faithless to be easilly brought back, I'll have to find some other way to keep her "out of reach." Maybe because she doesn't want to return or something, but that may reduce the emotional value of the story.

My own scant Forgotten Realms literature is a bit limited, but there is something to consider in the core book.

With Raise Dead or Resurrection, if cast quickly enough, even a faithless person could come back (that is tentatively could come back).

However, this is where a little pen-n-paper knowledge actually helps. In Dungeons and Dragons Second Edition there was a little thing called the Resurrection Survival Roll.

This was a number based on your Constitution, and you would roll it when you were brought back from the dead (whether with a Raise Dead clerical spell or Resurrection clerical spell).

If you failed the roll, you were dead. Permanently. The only way to become alive was by a direct intervention by a deity (and a god's intermediary such as cleric casting a spell doesn't count as direct intervention). So just rule the girl in question would fail her roll. In the game, of course, say something along the lines, "No matter the strength of your spell, you find her spirit beyond all contact)

(Another interesting tidbit was that you could only be resurrected by as many points as you have in Constitution.)

Mind you, I do admit that Icelandismine's post on why a person might not return fits better for a story, though.

Edited by Bri, 16 August 2004 - 02:26 PM.

[BobTokyo]

Thanks Bri. I may use "we couldn't bring her back". Still, from a story point of view I think the idea that she died faithless and heartbroken (and therefore could not return) has more impact.

[Bane]

So how long do you stay in Kelemvor's realm if you betray your faith or are faithless (for eternity? )

[Mongoose87]

Betraying your faith is being false. The flase have a whole different set of eternal torments.

[icelandismine]

More specific info:

If you are faithless, then you stay in the wall, and are decomposed by mold untill they are completly gone. Nothing can save them then. The False are punished according to their crimes. Some get realtivly easy punishment, some are punished horribly. All live withen the city. And a wish or miracle spell to bring them back may not do so. Even if you're deity agrees, they will have to negoiate with
Kelemvor.

One other fate:
Their are Baatezu on the Fugue plane (where the dead are), and they have a deal with Kelemvor. They cannot harm or trick the souls, and explain to them where they are. They then bargain with the souls for their, well, souls. The souls can become a Lemure (weakest devil), which can become more powerful over time. Sometimes, the souls are rewards for doing so, such as early promotions, or rewards for family or friends on the Prime, or devilish attacks on enemies.

[Feanor]

Well in my opinion I think we need to look at a couple of things. For it to work i think:

1. The soul has to want to come back (but seeing as how the faithless get cemented into the wall for a stretch of eternal suffering i dont think that's gonna be a problem).

2. Short of using a 'wish', the other alternatives are all clerical in nature, which means you're gonna have to run it past your god. The thing is, why would your god care about bringing back someone who is'nt a believer??

Cleric of X to party: 'Never fear, I'll cast 'miracle', true resurrection' etc.

God X: Not with my divine power you don't matey!!

Since people who worship a deity can be ressurected by other deity's clerics, I don't see why faithless should not be. After all, the god grants that spell to his cleric (so he has nothing to do with that faithless person), he does not impose any restriction about how to use it. For instance, good person can be ressurected by evil clerics.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Just be careful where you apply it.  I don't have books handy, but sometimes there are differences in content in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition.

There's a point in a dialog I'm working on involving a girl who commited suicide. Her familly is not poor. The tragedy is lessened if they could just go to the Temple district and have her brought back. So, as long as it does not conflict with Forgotten Realms lore as established in the BG1&2 games or official FR lore, in this case I'd say that she died without faith, and therefore is beyond any known form of Resurection available in Athkathla.

If FR lore does allow even the faithless to be easilly brought back, I'll have to find some other way to keep her "out of reach." Maybe because she doesn't want to return or something, but that may reduce the emotional value of the story.

2nd Edition comments:

2nd Edition didn't allow for the person being raised to refuse to come back, but it seems fairly logical. They were just assumed to work all the time. Raise Dead required the whole body, and that they weren't dead longer than 1 day/caster level... and permanantly drained a point of Constitution from the person being raised. Also, Raise Dead could not return an Elf to life (could raise other humanoids, but not elves - but as you can see, this did not apply in BG2 - plus Jaheira got Harper's Call which does not appear in 2nd Ed anywhere. Druids got Reincarnation, and that was it as far as bringing back the dead is concerned!). Resurrection, could raise someone who had been dead up to 10 years/level, didn't require the whole body, and could raise even elves. (Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot about System Shock Survival rolls... You need to survive one of those in both cases, but an average Con (10) has 75% chance to be successful. Don't need them in 3rd Ed, and certainly don't need them in BG2!)

The reverse of Resurrection, Destruction, could put someone beyond being raised, but not beyond being raised by a Wish spell.

General and 3rd Edition comments:

Committing suicide is a big hint that she may not wish to return.

For a faithless or false, up to the point of Kelemvor's judgement, they may be raised or resurrected by normal means... Generally I'd say a day is about right. After that, a Wish or a Miracle spell is required (because the direct intervention of a deity is required - and even so, I think the person concerned could still refuse to come back anyway)... True Resurrection, Wish, and Miracle all require rather hefty sacrifices (by way of material goods), they are, by no means, cheap.

Also, the dead are very much aware of who is trying to raise them, and can refuse to come back. (For example, a paladin might not allow herself to be raised if the person doing the raising is a priest of an evil deity).

Personally, I feel the idea of the "resurrection that doesn't work" is over done... It's almost a cliche, particularly in Realms books where deities and their clerics are almost universally avoided (and if clerics are included, they're usually low powered, fanatical, or incompetent (and usually they're all three)). *sigh* It's a personal gripe of mine.

Edited by Zandilar, 18 August 2004 - 05:16 AM.

[Xander77]

After all, the god grants that spell to his cleric (so he has nothing to do with that faithless person), he does not impose any restriction about how to use it. For instance, good person can be ressurected by evil clerics.

Bollocks.

A god can and will drop a cleric for mis-using his spells over a long period of time, and may deny him powers on one occasion if the cleric mistakenly attempts to work against the god's goals.

[BobTokyo]

Personally, I feel the idea of the "resurrection that doesn't work" is over done... It's almost a cliche, particularly in Realms books where deities and their clerics are almost universally avoided (and if clerics are included, they're usually low powered, fanatical, or incompetent (and usually they're all three)). *sigh* It's a personal gripe of mine.

Almost certainly true. The problem is that so many dramatic plots depend on the lost lover, the fallen friend, the loved one beyond reach, etc.

It's very tough to write a tale of loss when the Death of X can be fixed at any time by a visit to the local priest. At most, you can get some mild pathos out of a poor family trying to save up to bring back a loved one, but then that says something dark about the motivations of "Good" priests.

For that matter, the certainty of an afterlife makes many sorts of story less viable.

For this dialog, I need a tragedy. If it's trite, I'll have to live with that.