38 replies to this topic

[Sillara]

I want a Keldorn romance! Anyone interested in making it?

SofT

[aequorea]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one. The line he has, that he will stay with the PC, hoping him and Torm will help them stay good (I'm sure you know that one I mean), is almost more romantic then almost anything Anomen says. Also I see there would be intresting conversations between keldorn and Anomen.

But alas I am not a coder, or a writer, just a lurker.

[Seifer]

As Keldorn himself admits, he is a man of two hearts, the order and his wife. What is most predominant in his case is that his emotion is tempered by experience and the fact, that as a man nearing the end of his 'career' he knows he has obligations to himself, his family and his God.
The line to which you refer to aequorea is one that can be attributed to duty and honour, rather then romance.

Lastly, for those who entertain ideas, all that has ben proposed both here and previously is very one-track in that, it is easy to project feelings of the PC towards Keldorn, whether this is is seeking anything in contrast to Anomen or actual desires, Keldorn's possible affections are usually considered in the wrong light. Dedication shouldn't be confused for romantic intent.

[Seifer]

The concept of Keldorn considering a romance with anyother is, in my honest opinion unworkable. In working towards a romance idea with him, you;d have to destabilize most of the traits that make him such an attractive (not literally mind) romance possibility.

[Seifer]

No offence Domi but we are perhaps talking past each other here. I'm emphasizing his good points and it is because of these that a romance is highly unlikely.

Because of that I can easily imagine him as a man in his years going for a "young and bright in-the-office" style or I can see him coming to see Maria's unfaithfulness as an equivalent of her death and seeking consolation to his pride with the PC.

This is considerably flawed on several fronts. First of all, as his confrontation with his wife reveals he had an affinity with the order before they were married. What Bioware may have visualised in regards to her opinions of Keldorn's other passion is debatable but what cannot be denied is that Keldorn doesn't see his role as an inquisitor as a 'job' but as a passion and one he performs with diligence and duty. On this basis alone, the fact he is married to his job and his wife with a family which he loves, perhas inequally, but loves nonetheless makes the perception he'll 'chase after the new girl' EXTREMELY unlikely.

The second presumption is also as laughable. Keldorn takes pride in his role as an inquisitor and this fuels his passion as a paladin but draws strength from his marraige as a different entity entirely, as a MAN not a paladin. His initial reaction at discovering he had been cuckolded isn't an instant rampage or a frenzy that results in both William and his wife being killed. His rage, his pain even comes as a man who's ability to ove remains as strong as ever but feels despair in knowing that for the first time, he could possibily be unloved. Where, in all of this pain and personal turmoil is there even the remotest possibility that he is looking to 'replace' his wife, nothing ingame suggests he is even that callous except when dealing with Viciona. The results of his discussion, when guided with the PC reveal to him what he has to do, to retire, to spend his wife with his family and to honour his committments.

In no manner at all is Keldorn remotely close to the manners in which you have suscribed to him.

[J Beau]

I can only see a legitimate Keldorn romance if his wife is killed off. He is a lawful good paladin. He is not going to betray his vows to his wife. He would fall if he did.

[Meira]

I can only see a legitimate Keldorn romance if his wife is killed off. He is a lawful good paladin. He is not going to betray his vows to his wife. He would fall if he did.

But you forgot *Noble Suffering* and *Living in Denial*. I can well se good old Keldorn finding then young Charname intoxicatingly different from any woman he has ever met. It's a story told thousands of times. Most definitely he would stay faithful (in flesh) to Maria (as he seems to genuinely love her), but who can really control where your mind wanders?

Also if Charame was evil, charismatic and clever enough, she might be able to bend or even break the limits of faithfulness - result would be disastrous on Keldorns point of view.

I see huge potential (but no 'happy' ending) with Keldorn romance, but it would require really insightful and sensitive approach from the writer. I don't see him actively seeking replacement or revenge no-matter happens with Maria, but rather a victim of the nets laid (intentionally or not) by young temptress aka Charname.

[Seifer]

So overall I do not find your argument convincing enough

Just as you questioned how I see Keldorn, now I do so for you. You maybe looking at Keldorn through feminine eyes which is of course all that you can do but I also believe that you are looking at the right traits in the wrong manner. If you answer honestly, and again, no insult is meant in this, is there any argument that I can place forward that you would see as acceptable which doesn't result in my agreeing to how possible it is to romance him?

The first element you make one huge mistake in appoint intentional direction.

I fail to see how the fact that he is passionate about his duty outrules "business" romance. I think it on the opposite makes it more likely. See, if his primary interest is in adevnturing and he had married young to a "right" but boring woman, a young and more like-minded one might attract him.

Here, you are suggesting that he might romance someone else for the sheer sake of making his sociological duties as a paladin easier. Are you suggesting that the nature of what he does will make him use someone in the manner you suggest? I don't think as much. This is effectively using someone to his own end, having the cake and eating it as such. Would Torm forgive this? Unlikely.

However, you do raise an unnintentional interesting paradigm here. It rasies possibilities of the PC being drawn towards him for reasons other then love (ie, pity) and Keldorn taking up the option as a recourse aside from love (ie, a comfort zone). If this is what you were attemtping to express, then fine, principly I agree with you, but you need to place more direction in your own argument so I can disagree with it =)

Erm... I do not think so. If he did, Maria would not be seeing him once in a few months. Men who draw their strength from a family just do not do that.

Again, you're not breaking the man away from the paladin. The roles overlap in many ways granted but Bioware actually cast him perfectly here. How many times has anyone started something to end with the credo 'Oh, a little longer can't hurt?' He can leave so long in the absolute faith (misguided, I'll grant you) that his family will never leave him. If the slightest hint had been raised I should imagine that he would have reacted in a similar manner.

His initial reaction at discovering he had been cuckolded isn't an instant rampage or a frenzy that results in both William and his wife being killed.

No, but he'd put his wife in jail I was told.

His rage, his pain even comes as a man who's ability to ove remains as strong as ever but feels despair in knowing that for the first time, he could possibily be unloved.

True, and being a human he could be suseptible to "she never really loved you" when the time is right.

So, who would say it and when then?

Of course there is. In case of 'good" solution it is Maria who comforts him but if she is in jail, for her love of another man there is only pain. So he will either grow embittered or try to forget her. By being unfaithful she stepped down from the piedestal.

She is still alive though which will, at once, take the wind out of his sails when it comes to deliberate romance with someone else. And I should also imagine that Maria getting placed in jail is relatively light. Compare the same point of time to the European middle ages, women were given the death sentance for much less. Had Keldorn been a thatcher, his wife would be swinging from the gallows rather then looking at them from a cell window. And you also fail to specify what Keldorn would become bitter at. His wife, possibly, the order, unlikely. He will have a constant a remainder of his fallicy as a human if maria is still alive and will not forget her as easily as you say. He'd either throw himself into his paladin duties with a hollow heart and dulled mind or he will use that pain to spur him on even more as it reminds him of how 'human' he is. And what is there to suggest that he will leave her if she is still alive in jail. Although not clear, I'm of the opinion her getting sent to jail via the courts is very lucky.

Meira, BTW, has hit the nail on the head in regards to the only possible outcome of this line of thought. A straight PC manipulation is plausible but that aside, the option, as far as I'm concerned, isn't possible at all.

Edited by Seifer, 19 June 2004 - 11:31 AM.

[Xaositect_Crayon]

you're all forgetting...

Jan needs loving too

[Sillara]

I think that a Keldorn romance would require a bit of finesse, especially for a good PC. I do think it could work. With the right options and dialogues, I even think it might be possible to swing a "happily-ever-after, married-at-the-end" one. The elements I think it would be necessary to include would require a bit of manipulation of his family quest, but it should be possible. I think that Maria would either need to die or to run off with Sir William. I think that in the case of being abandoned by his wife (rather than having her be put in jail), Keldorn--and the Order--might most likely consider his obligations to her dissolved. In her death, obviously. With a bit of finangling, we could even alter Sir William into a darker sort of character altogether. Right now I consider him rather fluffy and lacking in any other personality. If anyone is interested in working on a Keldorn romance, I would be willing to help. (I do not have time to do it myself as I am currently working on Tsujatha TOB, and my third novel is clamoring for my attention! )

Sillara

[Sillara]

Umm, I never thought of Maria as a good woman. Hmm. Still, it would be better if she died, at least from Charname's point of view.

Sillara

[Xander77]

domi:

1) Err... where does the idea that Keldorn runs away from his wife at the end of ToB comes from? It's strongly implied in his epilogue that he laid down his sword to be with his family:

Keldorn Firecam thought his travels with <CHARNAME> marked the end of his
active career, both as an adventurer and in service to the Order. He retired
to Athkatla, hoping to live in as much peace as an old warrior can expect,
but the call to serve came one last time...

2) Err... no offense, but why are you such an active participant in this discussion if, as you have said otherwise, you dislike Keldorn, and don't play with him?

I am not an active participant in the Valygar romance forum, because I dislike him, and don't know his personality... ditto for the Edwin romance - my opinion of Edwin's personality is vastly different from Laufrey's...