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BW-Balancer general feedback thread


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#1 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:06 PM

This is to let you all know that me and MM75 have undertaken a project to create a balancing mod for BWP.
The goal is to balance the big content mods for BWP, kind of like BP-Balancer did (to some extent) for BP.

To do this however we need feedback and suggestions from you!

We do not have our own forum yet, and will likely not have until we are ready to release an early version of the mod.
In the meantime this thread will be your chance to give us general feedback/suggestions on what the mod should be like.

If you have something to say about a specific mod then please do so at the appropriate thread in each respective mod forum, to which I will provide links below in this post.

As of now the first mod up for revision/balancing is DSotSC. A feedback thread for NTotSC is also up and running.


DSotSC Feedback thread
NTotSC Feedback thread

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 01 January 2010 - 03:10 PM.


#2 Quester

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:28 PM

Brilliant! Exactly what I feel is most needed in the mod community.

Don't have much to say at the moment, except that I hope you guys will provide several 'levels' of balancing, so one can choose roughly how many things will be toned down or removed from the mods (in terms of items, money and XP rewards), or how much they will be toned down.

Other than that, good luck with the mod, it's one I will definitely use when it becomes available.

#3 Lollorian

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:49 PM

Good to see you're still working on this :coolthumb: It's about time the BP-Balancer got overhauled :cheers:

(oh, and totally support the own-forum-for-BWP thing :P)

Cheers,
Lol

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#4 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:32 PM

Any thoughts?

Well, there is a small problem on which resources which mod updates, cause I at least don't look at the .tp2 code intensely enough to have a half-%&¤'ed but fairly accurate guess what which mod makes what. So I'll put my suggestion here.

I have one suggestion for the effects that comes from two spells, one of these mods BP-NTotSC-DSotSC_and_most_likely_option-TDD adds the highly unbalanced one, and the other one is a vanilla spell, the spell in question is spwi426.spl, the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing, with is the same like spell as the Improved Alacrity(spwi921), the off balanced thing is that the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing is 4th level, while the IA is actually 10th level spell, and the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing is better and get even better when you level up.
Now, I have nothing against this sort of spells, but I would make the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing first last only 6 seconds, and get +1/3-1/7 seconds every caster level minus the first five levels... up to say 12 seconds.
While make the Improved Alacrity start at 24 seconds(double the original), and +6 seconds every 6 caster levels minus the first 18 levels, up to say... 60 seconds. And make the casting timer be 10, for both spells. Yes, I still wish to keep both spells, but just balance them way much better.

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#5 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 04:51 AM

I have one suggestion for the effects that comes from two spells, one of these mods BP-NTotSC-DSotSC_and_most_likely_option-TDD adds the highly unbalanced one, and the other one is a vanilla spell, the spell in question is spwi426.spl, the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing, with is the same like spell as the Improved Alacrity(spwi921), the off balanced thing is that the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing is 4th level, while the IA is actually 10th level spell, and the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing is better and get even better when you level up.
Now, I have nothing against this sort of spells, but I would make the Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing first last only 6 seconds, and get +1/3-1/7 seconds every caster level minus the first five levels... up to say 12 seconds.


Hm, pinpointing Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing (MARW401.spl) to a certain mod appears to be tricky. Changelog reveals D0Questpack to be the first mod to touch it, but all I can see that the mod does is to make the spell detectable. As far as I have gathered it is a vanilla BGII spell, though it was certainly unavailable to the player in the vanilla game. It is possible that one of the mods puts the vanilla spell scroll (scrx11.itm) into the game, changelog revealed that no mod had changed that one though. Do you remember how you got it Jarno? I have this vague suspicion that my sorcerer got in in another playthrough, which does indeed suggest that a mod makes it available to the player.

I am in principle skeptical to altering vanilla items and spells. I do agree that Daer'Ragh's Aura Clensing is unbalanced however and that something should be done about it. Anybody know which mod makes it available to the player?

#6 Lollorian

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:21 AM

Anybody know which mod makes it available to the player?

Dunno which one it is, but BGT and TDD are the only ones that specifically target that spell :P

Wait a sec, BPSeries seems to do stuff with that spell in its mage scripts, and since it only has spell support for TDD, I'd reckon the spell's introed by TDD :cheers:

Cheers,
Lol

Edited by Lollorian, 31 December 2009 - 05:24 AM.

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#7 czm0

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 05:49 AM

Great news! I can't wait to try it.
Those big mods really need to be rebalanced. They are fun to play, but overpowered items and spells are quite annoying. You can of course leave them on the ground or sell them, but that ruins immersion (for me at least).

#8 Hoppy

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 10:04 AM

Anybody know which mod makes it available to the player?

Dunno which one it is, but BGT and TDD are the only ones that specifically target that spell :P

Wait a sec, BPSeries seems to do stuff with that spell in its mage scripts, and since it only has spell support for TDD, I'd reckon the spell's introed by TDD :cheers:

Cheers,
Lol



Both
The Darkest Day and Desecration of Souls (CoM) add it. I can't remember if the Undying includes DoS or whatever it includes. Also BP series adds spells that don't exist so take that for what it's worth :P

Edited by Hoppy, 31 December 2009 - 10:05 AM.

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#9 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:41 AM


Both
The Darkest Day and Desecration of Souls (CoM) add it. I can't remember if the Undying includes DoS or whatever it includes. Also BP series adds spells that don't exist so take that for what it's worth :P


All I can see that TDD does with the spell is to append it to spells.ids. If I understand the engine correctly that would make the spell available to sorcerers, while mages still can't use it unless they found a scroll, right?

Anybody got this spell for their mage?

Oh, and a happy new year to you all! :)

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 01 January 2010 - 02:43 AM.


#10 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:14 AM

All I can see that TDD does with the spell is to append it to spells.ids. If I understand the engine correctly that would make the spell available to sorcerers, while mages still can't use it unless they found a scroll, right?
Anybody got this spell for their mage?

Well, if it's awailable for a Sorcerer, it's available for a new mage, he just needs to be at level 7, which the starting mage in BGII - SoA is. And I am quite sure the TDD does include the scroll too. The scroll item name is scrlf2.itm according to my archives, yes they are actually from Classic Adventures mod. :devil: Yeah, should you know, the CA is based upon once stable BP-World install.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 01 January 2010 - 03:17 AM.

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#11 GeN1e

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:58 AM

Adding entries to IDS has no impact on who gets what. It's needed for scripting, so that you can call it ~Spell("TargetObject",NAME_ENTRY_FROM_IDS)~ as opposed to ~SpellRES("resource","TargetObject")~. No need to remeber all those alike looking filenames, you simply type a human-readable name and compiler understands you all the same.

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#12 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:40 AM

Well, if it's available for a Sorcerer, it's available for a new mage, he just needs to be at level 7, which the starting mage in BGII - SoA is. And I am quite sure the TDD does include the scroll too. The scroll item name is scrlf2.itm according to my archives, yes they are actually from Classic Adventures mod. :devil: Yeah, should you know, the CA is based upon once stable BP-World install.


Good point. So used to starting in BG1 that I forgot. Don't know why the scroll is called scrlf2.itm in your game... It's definitely called scrx11.itm in my game and scrlf2.itm doesn't even exist.

A search with NI reveals that scrx11.itm can be found in bhxspell.sto and madeel.sto. Now to do some changelogs...

Which reveals that bhxspell.sto is changed by Bone Hill and Atweaks, while madeel.sto is changed by TDD, BG1 NPC, BG2 TWEAKS, ATWEAKS and AGPRICES (in that order). Now to do some Tp2 reading...

Which tells me that bhxspell.sto does indeed belong to Bone Hill while madeel.sto is all TDD (which also adds scrx11.itm).
Interestingly scrx11.itm wouldn't exist in bhxspell.sto without TDD installed.

Adding entries to IDS has no impact on who gets what. It's needed for scripting, so that you can call it ~Spell("TargetObject",NAME_ENTRY_FROM_IDS)~ as opposed to ~SpellRES("resource","TargetObject")~. No need to remeber all those alike looking filenames, you simply type a human-readable name and compiler understands you all the same.


So spells available to the mage/sorcerer on creation/levelup is not decided by the ids but rather by a 2da? Do you happen to remember which?

#13 GeN1e

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:57 AM

So spells available to the mage/sorcerer on creation/levelup is not decided by the ids but rather by a 2da? Do you happen to remember which?

No idea. There is a SPELLS.2DA, but IESDP says it doesn't affect wizard spells, and it has got only 7 levels too. Still, the rule spwiX[1;49] seems to apply correctly. Maybe it's hardcoded, maybe not.

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#14 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:07 PM

So spells available to the mage/sorcerer on creation/levelup is not decided by the ids but rather by a 2da? Do you happen to remember which?

No idea. There is a SPELLS.2DA, but IESDP says it doesn't affect wizard spells, and it has got only 7 levels too. Still, the rule spwiX[1;49] seems to apply correctly. Maybe it's hardcoded, maybe not.


Anybody?

#15 Solaufein

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 01:51 AM

DoS doesn't exist any more, I don't know why I keep seeing it being mentioned. Went I added it to the Undying, I left the custom spells out. So no so called over kill, cheesy spells in the Undying.
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#16 -Strontium Dog-

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:40 AM

I'm all in favour of nerfing mods. I certainly think there should be a much wider choice of what restrictions/changes one wants to implement. For example, I seriously object to any XP-nerfing even when playing a BWP mod as I'd like all my PCs to reach 30th level minimum by the end of the game(indeed, I use a modified cheat from a smaller mod which allows me to grant 2 extra xp points for every standard xp point gained, so that my characters can reach high levels despite being all triple-classed).

There are so many powerful items now in my
game(I've installed an extremely complicated BWP game with the idea of having as many non-conflicting mods as possible while having the fewest errors), that I'm not too sure what constitutes excess [powers in an item. I seem to recall that the previous bp-balancer mod simply removed items. I therefore removed it from my install as I wanted a more comprehensive version of Zyraen's Miscellany mod which simply reduces the powers of items. For example, weapons that force creatures to do saves, should only have those saves activated no more than 25% of the time, the shild of balduran should only be effective against beholder rays half the time etc.

The other problem is that there are a number of item-enhancing mods such as the Item Upgrade mod. I found that mod useful for improving some items in a moderate way(eg:- Unholy Reaver)
er etc.) but some items(such as the Kiihix spider figurine and the improved daystar(+8 to hit evil creatures!) were clearly
ridiculously overpowered.

#17 -Strontium Dog-

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:51 AM

Another thing:- Most spells in the standard BG2 game are hopelessly nerfed so that playing a mage becomes a joke as you have to rest countless times, once before each fight, and even then fighters are far more powerful. I mean, in a standard unmodded game, I remember lobbing fireballs at BG2 Throne of Bhaal creatures who would be barely affected by them. Fortunately spell_rev and spell50 mods allow changes to that, though I'm forced to choose between them sometimes rather than halfway between them. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that some of the extra spells I've had added to my installation are by contrast to the BG2 standard spells, likely way too overpowered(eg:- firaga/blizzaga/thundaga/wind/bio) and require fixing.

#18 OneEyedPhoenix

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 05:29 AM

I'm all in favour of nerfing mods. I certainly think there should be a much wider choice of what restrictions/changes one wants to implement. For example, I seriously object to any XP-nerfing even when playing a BWP mod as I'd like all my PCs to reach 30th level minimum by the end of the game(indeed, I use a modified cheat from a smaller mod which allows me to grant 2 extra xp points for every standard xp point gained, so that my characters can reach high levels despite being all triple-classed).


We don't intend to reduce XP all that much (except perhaps to make the rewards more appropriate for creature difficulty and comparable to already existing creatures [which could go either way]). There already exists xp-reducing mods for that.

There are so many powerful items now in my
game(I've installed an extremely complicated BWP game with the idea of having as many non-conflicting mods as possible while having the fewest errors), that I'm not too sure what constitutes excess [powers in an item. I seem to recall that the previous bp-balancer mod simply removed items. I therefore removed it from my install as I wanted a more comprehensive version of Zyraen's Miscellany mod which simply reduces the powers of items. For example, weapons that force creatures to do saves, should only have those saves activated no more than 25% of the time, the shield of Balduran should only be effective against beholder rays half the time etc.


That is also one of my biggest griefs with the BP-Balancer. It's idea of balancing is to randomly remove unique items, determined by a player selected factor. You'll be happy to hear that we intend to balance/nerf unique items rather than removing them, and while I'm unfamiliar with Zyraen's mod it sounds like we are thinking along the same lines.

The other problem is that there are a number of item-enhancing mods such as the Item Upgrade mod. I found that mod useful for improving some items in a moderate way(eg:- Unholy Reaver)
er etc.) but some items(such as the Kiihix spider figurine and the improved daystar(+8 to hit evil creatures!) were clearly
ridiculously overpowered.


As far as item upgrade mods go I'm as of yet undecided if they have a place in a mod like ours or not. Certainly many of them can be unbalancing, but when you install these mods you willingly accept such a risk. I don't see myself revising such mods in the overseeable future. For one there are way too many content mods that need balancing already, which in my opinion deserve it more than simple item mods. Secondly, many of these mods alter vanilla items, which we don't intend to touch in the first place (way too many potential compatibility issues). If someone would like to balance such a mod however they are welcome to contribute to our project.

Another thing:- Most spells in the standard BG2 game are hopelessly nerfed so that playing a mage becomes a joke as you have to rest countless times, once before each fight, and even then fighters are far more powerful. I mean, in a standard unmodded game, I remember lobbing fireballs at BG2 Throne of Bhaal creatures who would be barely affected by them. Fortunately spell_rev and spell50 mods allow changes to that, though I'm forced to choose between them sometimes rather than halfway between them. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that some of the extra spells I've had added to my installation are by contrast to the BG2 standard spells, likely way too overpowered(eg:- firaga/blizzaga/thundaga/wind/bio) and require fixing.


I cannot stress this enough... Don't install Exnem's vault!
This mod has nothing to do in a balanced game and is one of the most frequently complained about mods in BWP, before it was moved to the expert selection at least.

As for your point about underpowered magic in BG2 I am not surprised that ToB enemies shrug of a third level spell like fireball. Try throwing "Dragon breath" or "Comet" at them instead. From my personal experience my fighters couldn't hold a candle to my spellcasters in the later portions of SoA and beyond. Nothing like a good "Dragon breath" for massive areal damage or an Elemental Prince or Deva for melee support.

#19 Fouinto

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:03 AM


There are so many powerful items now in my
game(I've installed an extremely complicated BWP game with the idea of having as many non-conflicting mods as possible while having the fewest errors), that I'm not too sure what constitutes excess [powers in an item. I seem to recall that the previous bp-balancer mod simply removed items. I therefore removed it from my install as I wanted a more comprehensive version of Zyraen's Miscellany mod which simply reduces the powers of items. For example, weapons that force creatures to do saves, should only have those saves activated no more than 25% of the time, the shield of Balduran should only be effective against beholder rays half the time etc.

That is also one of my biggest griefs with the BP-Balancer. It's idea of balancing is to randomly remove unique items, determined by a player selected factor. You'll be happy to hear that we intend to balance/nerf unique items rather than removing them, and while I'm unfamiliar with Zyraen's mod it sounds like we are thinking along the same lines.

*I* am happy to hear that :)
imho, tune down items is always better than remove them.

I am currently playing BWP "tactics" : SCS/SCSII/Hard Time and few others mods did remove a lot of magical item (in particular, every +1 weapon becomes "fine weapons") so that the first magical weapon I have found was a +3 staff !!! How funny :)
Few ideas could be (BG1 part) :
  • Every +3/+4/+5 weapons becomes +2 weapons,
  • Every +2 weapons becomes +1 weapons,
  • Every +1 weapons becomes fines weapons,
  • Don't remove Ring of wizardry (I am not sure of the English name) but tune it down (don't double the number of 1st level spell but only add one ore two) and give it to Daevorn or someone else,
  • ...
My purpose is that I think BW-Balancer will be VERY hard to get !

#20 Lollorian

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:54 AM

Good to know that you're only nerfing the itamz :P

  • Every +3/+4/+5 weapons becomes +2 weapons,
  • Every +2 weapons becomes +1 weapons,
  • Every +1 weapons becomes fines weapons,
  • Don't remove Ring of wizardry (I am not sure of the English name) but tune it down (don't double the number of 1st level spell but only add one ore two) and give it to Daevorn or someone else,
  • ...

To this, even I agree :coolthumb: But can atleast one +3 item on each item type be allowed in BGI?? (preferably from the vanilla game)

Cheers,
Lol

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