30 replies to this topic

[Darpaek]

Paddy Stoutfellow was making my game crash in the South Forest (the area where you enter Suldanessalar). He comes equipped with Elven Chain Mail in his armor slot, but another mod made ECM only wearable by humans/elves/half-elves.

So, I whipped out NI and removed the ECM from his armor slot and voila- no crash. So if anyone else is getting a CTD trying to enter Suldanessalar, try putting this into your override.

(Man! I'm becoming a whizz at this infinity modding stuff!!!)

Attached Files

•  CBSTTFLW.CRE   1.56K   315 downloads

[Lollorian]

Great job dude!!!

Now, if only we knew which mod changes the elven chain to be wearable by only some guys (nudges for changelog of chainmail )

Btw, that's just for helping the BWP guys include some fix in the next fixpack

Cheers,
Lol

[Lollorian]

Bump requesting for changelog It would be great to know which mod changes whatever Elven Chain Mail he was wearing to change the install order or something

In case you forgot, point #5 here shows how to changelog

Cheers,
Lol

[Miloch]

weidu --change-log chan12.itm

On my (old) BWP install, it's wearable by all races, so I suspect it's either a newer mod or a so-called "expert" thing (possibly one of those overwriting mods too).

[Mike1072]

Now, if only we knew which mod changes the elven chain to be wearable by only some guys (nudges for changelog of chainmail )

IR changes the description and usability of some elven chainmail to only be wearable by humans, elves, and half-elves. Changing the usability of an item makes it turn red in certain characters' inventories, preventing it from being manually equipped - but that's all. It should in no way cause a crash if the item becomes equipped by other means and indeed I was unable to reproduce your crash with the provided .cre and IR's chan12.

Running a changelog on the item is a good idea. You might also want to find out what happens when you equip the item on a halfling party member and what happens when you equip other chainmails on the mod creature. It's possible that this has something to do with animations.

Edited by Mike1072, 10 September 2009 - 06:29 PM.

[Miloch]

Changing the usability of an item makes it turn red in certain characters' inventories, preventing it from being manually equipped - but that's all. It should in no way cause a crash if the item becomes equipped by other means and indeed I was unable to reproduce your crash with the provided .cre and IR's chan12.

In the case of CREs (not *characters*) such an unequippable item that is already equipped can cause crashes, and they aren't always reproducable from one computer to another (oddity of the engine I suppose).

Running a changelog on the item is a good idea.

Not really necessary, since you already stated which mod made the change . If it does, however, have something to do with animations (unlikely, but remotely possible if some other mod messed with the animations) then the change-log needs to be run on the animations themselves (something in the CIMxxxxx.bam range I reckon), not the items or CREs.

[Lollorian]

But, it may still be possible that some other overwritter mod's responsible

Before this turns ugly ... Darpaek, DO THE CHANGELOG ALREADY!!!

Cheers,
Lol

[Miloch]

But, it may still be possible that some other overwritter mod's responsible

It is an overwriting mod responsible, as Mike1072 noted. Not sure if WeiDU preserves the change history of all overwriting mods, but anyhoo, only the last one will have an effect. Sure, another mod could do the same thing, but then it'd also cause the same effect (a crash), no?

Before this turns ugly ... Darpaek, DO THE CHANGELOG ALREADY!!!

It is ugly . But he solved his problem with NI hacking apparently, and like I said, the changelog won't tell us a whole lot, since the modder already said his mod caused the effect.

I suppose we should also take a gander at Darpaek's WeiDU log, as much as I hate doing that for BWP stuff (laundry list of mods ftw ).

[Mike1072]

But, it may still be possible that some other overwritter mod's responsible

It is an overwriting mod responsible, as Mike1072 noted. Sure, another mod could do the same thing, but then it'd also cause the same effect (a crash), no?

Responsible for changing the usability, yes. Responsible for the crash? As I mentioned, I was able to equip IR's "unusable by halflings" version of the item on this exact creature and spawn them without a crash. If some part of altered item usabilities can cause crashes, I've not heard of it and would definitely appreciate any information on the subject, especially a repeatable test case. As of now, I can only consider the cause of the crash to be still undetermined.

Not sure if WeiDU preserves the change history of all overwriting mods, but anyhoo, only the last one will have an effect.

WeiDU's changelog does preserve this information. It works via the mod backup folders I believe.

And overwriting has nothing to do with this issue.

[Miloch]

As I mentioned, I was able to equip IR's "unusable by halflings" version of the item on this exact creature and spawn them without a crash.

And as I mentioned:

In the case of CREs (not *characters*) such an unequippable item that is already equipped can cause crashes, and they aren't always reproducable from one computer to another (oddity of the engine I suppose).

We've seen this several times in other mods.

And it isn't necessary to underline part of your post so it looks like a hyperlink.

[Mike1072]

As I mentioned, I was able to equip IR's "unusable by halflings" version of the item on this exact creature and spawn them without a crash.

And as I mentioned:

In the case of CREs (not *characters*) such an unequippable item that is already equipped can cause crashes, and they aren't always reproducable from one computer to another (oddity of the engine I suppose).

We've seen this several times in other mods.

Can you link me to these several cases, then? I'm looking for an actual report that this can cause troubles. If it does, I definitely want to fix problems it and the X other items that have changed usabilities might have, but I don't want to spend time and effort producing an ugly patch that ends up swapping all sorts of equipped items to who knows what because of an unconfirmed, unreproducible report.

And it isn't necessary to underline part of your post so it looks like a hyperlink.

And it isn't necessary to actively oppose attempts made to get to the bottom of what caused this crash, but whatever floats your boat.

[10th]

Just a wild guess, as I haven't yet seen any crash-report about it, but what if Darpaek has 1ppV3: Thieves Galore installed, and the halfling armor animation sequence contains some errors?

10th

Edited by 10th, 12 September 2009 - 02:01 PM.

[Miloch]

Can you link me to these several cases, then? I'm looking for an actual report that this can cause troubles.

Google and SHS's search feature are your friends . Offhand, such reports will probably crop up in the DS forum, maybe stuff like Bonehill, CtB etc. too... erebusant might know more if he's around (been kinda scarce lately though).

And it isn't necessary to actively oppose attempts made to get to the bottom of what caused this crash, but whatever floats your boat.

How the hells am I "actively opposing" any troubleshooting here? I don't think I'm even "passively opposing" any such attempts - if that's even possible. I suppose it might be if I knew something further and didn't bother posting about it. I suppose also I could be "more active" and do your googling for you, but I'm quite busy at the moment and probably wouldn't have the time even if you asked nicely (which you haven't ).

Just a wild guess, as I haven't yet seen any crash-report about it, but what if Darpaek has 1ppV3: Thieves Galore installed, and the halfling armor animation sequence contains some errors?

Could be, which is what I implied with the suggestion that an item change-log won't help if it is a BAM issue. But we should probably get the WeiDU.log first before speculating further. Maybe we scared the OP off, since he's been around other posts since then .

[Mike1072]

Can you link me to these several cases, then? I'm looking for an actual report that this can cause troubles.

Google and SHS's search feature are your friends . Offhand, such reports will probably crop up in the DS forum, maybe stuff like Bonehill, CtB etc. too... erebusant might know more if he's around (been kinda scarce lately though).

I did a Google search for usability + crash on the major IE modding forums and didn't find anything relevant.

And it isn't necessary to actively oppose attempts made to get to the bottom of what caused this crash, but whatever floats your boat.

How the hells am I "actively opposing" any troubleshooting here? I don't think I'm even "passively opposing" any such attempts - if that's even possible. I suppose it might be if I knew something further and didn't bother posting about it.

Well, you've said that doing a changelog on the item is unnecessary and exclaimed "that mod br0ke it!", so I wouldn't be surprised if the OP got an impression that the mystery was solved.

[Lollorian]

Well, if ya guys need his WeiDU.log, it's been already posted here.

But still, a changelog of the itm would stop anymore conspiracy theories of the itm being affected by mod X and mod Y. Come on, who would've guessed that the random demonic encounters problem was cause of Haiass and SCSII (the former not having demons at all, and the latter adding demons to only Watcher's keep)

Isn't there any other reason for a CtD than an animation bug?

Cheers,
Lol

EDIT: Added linkies

Edited by Lollorian, 12 September 2009 - 08:01 PM.

[Miloch]

I did a Google search for usability + crash on the major IE modding forums and didn't find anything relevant.

Well, your google skills must really suck.
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=399041
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=219052
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=168408
http://www.shsforums...pic=24764&st=20
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=18069
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=36528

Though I really don't know how any of that will help you fix this. And some of those may concern weapons rather than armour or may even have unknown causes (as does this error) but the reports are out there, and more besides.

Well, you've... exclaimed "that mod br0ke it!"

I exclaimed nothing of the sort, and if I did, I wouldn't've used loserspeak (or leetspeak or whatever it's called when you get your numbers confused with your letters).

But still, a changelog of the itm would stop anymore conspiracy theories of the itm being affected by mod X and mod Y.

The item *is* affected by Item Revisions - the modder himself said so. There's no conspiracy there. Does that that same mod causes the crash necessarily? Did anyone actually say that?

Let me break it down for you guys one more time. Original post said:

Paddy Stoutfellow was making my game crash in the South Forest (the area where you enter Suldanessalar). He comes equipped with Elven Chain Mail in his armor slot, but another mod made ECM only wearable by humans/elves/half-elves.

Mike1072 said:

IR changes the description and usability of some elven chainmail to only be wearable by humans, elves, and half-elves.

Now we also know Item Revisions overwrites, which means any changes other mods made to the item would be irrelevant, unless they happened after the fact. In any case, he says his mod is responsible for the item change (note again: *not* necessarily the item causing a crash). A change-log on the item would diagnose nothing therefore, though it may be helpful on other resources just as I've stated (and 10th has also suggested).

Isn't there any other reason for a CtD than an animation bug?

Yes, of course - all sorts of reasons, which is why we can't really troubleshoot this further if Darpaek isn't willing to provide more info. Though I guess someone could try to reproduce his exact install (including all mods, or at least the suspect ones) and then try to reproduce the crash, if someone really wanted to go that far.

[Lollorian]

But still, a changelog of the itm would stop anymore conspiracy theories of the itm being affected by mod X and mod Y.

The item *is* affected by Item Revisions - the modder himself said so. There's no conspiracy there. Does that that same mod causes the crash necessarily? Did anyone actually say that?

Yes ItemRev affects the mod, agreed. But, you might also take into account that the component that does that "[Item Revisions by Demivrgvs]" (if i'm not mistaken ) is installed pretty high up in Darpaek's WeiDU.log. And there are bucketloads of mods that affect items later.

Even if itemrev overwrites, any other "patcher" mods installed later would still affect the overwritten item. That, my friend, can only be found out using a changelog of the item.

(ps: you two need to shake hands and make up ... start by sharing this cookie we don't want two very respectable modders taking digs at each other's google-fu and leetspeak ... btw, it's l33tsp34k )

Cheers,
Lol

Edited by Lollorian, 12 September 2009 - 10:08 PM.

[Miloch]

But, you might also take into account that the component that does that "[Item Revisions by Demivrgvs]" (if i'm not mistaken ) is installed pretty high up in Darpaek's WeiDU.log. And there are bucketloads of mods that affect items later.

But you, my friend, are still assuming it's the *item* causing the crash, and not a BAM or something else.

we don't want two very respectable modders taking digs at each other's google-fu and leetspeak

You mean, we don't *one* respectable modder... heh heh... alright, fine... tell him to stop putting words in my mouth and I'll consider not getting all half-orc barbarian on him (though frankly, I haven't even done that yet ).

[Lollorian]

Pmed Darpaek to look at this thread ... No one post until he answers kay?? (btw, before I start the "I told you so..." rant, check post #7 in this thread. This was the ugly I was afraid of )

Cheers,
Lol

[Mike1072]

Sorry, Lollorian, I have to respond. I do hope Darpaek returns to give more information.

I did a Google search for usability + crash on the major IE modding forums and didn't find anything relevant.

Well, your google skills must really suck.
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=399041
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=219052
http://www.shsforums...&...st&p=168408
http://www.shsforums...pic=24764&st=20
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=18069
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=36528

Though I really don't know how any of that will help you fix this. And some of those may concern weapons rather than armour or may even have unknown causes (as does this error) but the reports are out there, and more besides.

None of those threads contain reports having anything to do with usabilities causing crashes.

Well, you've... exclaimed "that mod br0ke it!"

I exclaimed nothing of the sort, and if I did, I wouldn't've used loserspeak (or leetspeak or whatever it's called when you get your numbers confused with your letters).

It's essentially the same thing to say that a changelog would give no useful information because the cause of the effect "known" to be responsible for unreproducible crashes had already been found.

Now we also know Item Revisions overwrites, which means any changes other mods made to the item would be irrelevant, unless they happened after the fact.

IR is installed as like the third mod in the BWP. The mod contains very specific instructions about where to install it. Nobody here is installing the main component at the end of all their other mods, or if they are, they deserve whatever bugs may arise from doing so.

A change-log on the item would diagnose nothing therefore, though it may be helpful on other resources just as I've stated (and 10th has also suggested).

There are plenty of other things could mess the item up. What if mod #82 patches on an effect to whatever chain mail this is that tries to play a non-existing animation? What if mod #129 changes the animation of the item to look like plate mail? There's no reason not to run a changelog on this, nor on other files.

Some tests I mentioned earlier (like equipping the item on party members) would also give information useful in finding out exactly what the problem is. A simple way to determine if usability is the problem is to equip the armour back on the creature, confirm that it crashes when spawning him, then change the armour so it is usable by halflings and try again. If it doesn't crash the second time, the usability is at fault.