232 replies to this topic

[CamDawg]

Since there (finally, w00t!) seems to be a non-trivial interest in combining Tutu and BGT, it's time to start a wish list of what players would like to see in a resultant combo of the two. My wish list:

• Tutu's area naming conventions: keeping the numbers and altering the prefixes are simpler. Walkthroughs and area lists for BG are useful for BGT-Tutu without a lookup chart
  
• Following are made optional at install time:
  • BG-BG2 transition
    
  • Map Notes
    
  • BG2 items introduced into BG (no katanas at Candlekepp Inn by default)
    
  • NPC kitting; drop class change options (e.g. no more option for fighters to be barbarians)
• Throne of Bhaal and Tales of the Sword Coast not required
  
• Reputation goes back to default range at Chateau Irenicus instead of remaining at its BG ending value
  
• One stop program that can invoke all conversion routines as needed as well as preflight BG/BG2 installs (enlist Macready if necessary)
  
• Tutu spawn points

Anyone else?

edit: I'll do my best to keep this post updated with suggestions from the thread as a whole (good idea Grim). Additional suggestions to my wish list above:

• TotSC events no longer post-Sarevok (already done in current BGT-WeiDU?)
  
• Utilize separate script for BG-BG2 transition rather than tacking on final BG cutscene

Edited by CamDawg, 14 January 2006 - 03:09 PM.

[Bursk]

Is it true that BGT only lets you play the TotSC bits after you've killed Sarevok? If so, I'd hate to see that restriction in the combined version.

[SimDing0]

Right. I don't know whether there's widespread support for keeping TotSC post-Sarevok. I'd be in favour of scrapping it completely since I've always felt it's an awful change to the story, but if there's interest then it should at least be optional.

[Hety]

Throne of Bhaal and Tales of the Sword Coast not required

IMO useless. More coding and zero practical value. Assuming amount of mods that require both its completely useless. Doubt anyone will play pure conversion without other mods installed.

[NiGHTMARE]

Letting people who don't own TotSC and/or ToB use BGT/Tutu is of zero practical value? I'd have to disagree with that.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 14 January 2006 - 12:44 PM.

[amazinggameguru]

Is it true that BGT only lets you play the TotSC bits after you've killed Sarevok? If so, I'd hate to see that restriction in the combined version.

This is how things were originally set up but I belive that this is no longer the case. Ascension fixed this in the latest release.

[Hety]

Letting people who don't own TotSC and/or ToB use BGT/Tutu is of zero practical value? I'd have to disagree with that.

Well if some1 is not interested in BG enough to buy BG:TotSC/BG2:ToB - i doubt he will ever try using BGT or Tutu. Its not bad to have this feature, but imo its not priority #1 or even #10. More like #100.

[CamDawg]

Adding requirements without a valid technical reason is poor development practice.

And yeah, sorry, forgot the TotSC post-Sarevok thing. If it's already been addressed in BGT-Weidu, then a well-deserved w00t to KD and Ascension64.

[Grim Squeaker]

Might I suggest when it comes to the transition that there be a cutscene in the standard install that is run at the end of BG1. This cutscene by default would just move the main character to BG2 and get rid of other people. If the BGT transition is installed then the cutscene would be replaced accordingly. Also, if someone wants a different transition mod the cutscene could be replaced with something else. But the point would be that the transition code isn't imbedded in the middle of the BG1 last area script.

Just an idea.

Edit: Also, might it be worth updating the top list as we come up with stuff?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 14 January 2006 - 01:34 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Well if some1 is not interested in BG enough to buy BG:TotSC/BG2:ToB - i doubt he will ever try using BGT or Tutu. Its not bad to have this feature, but imo its not priority #1 or even #10. More like #100.

If you take a look at past posts in the BGT and Tutu forums, you'll find that a significant number of people who don't own TotSC and/or ToB are highly interested in using either BGT or Tutu.

[Sir BillyBob]

I can see not requiring TotSC but ToB? Doesn't several new classes, spells, items, and effects all come from ToB?

[ronin]

Might I suggest when it comes to the transition that there be a cutscene in the standard install that is run at the end of BG1. This cutscene by default would just move the main character to BG2 and get rid of other people. If the BGT transition is installed then the cutscene would be replaced accordingly. Also, if someone wants a different transition mod the cutscene could be replaced with something else. But the point would be that the transition code isn't imbedded in the middle of the BG1 last area script.

Just an idea.

Edit: Also, might it be worth updating the top list as we come up with stuff?

Maybe something like this? http://www.shsforums...showtopic=18559

ronin

[Grim Squeaker]

Might I suggest when it comes to the transition that there be a cutscene in the standard install that is run at the end of BG1. This cutscene by default would just move the main character to BG2 and get rid of other people. If the BGT transition is installed then the cutscene would be replaced accordingly. Also, if someone wants a different transition mod the cutscene could be replaced with something else. But the point would be that the transition code isn't imbedded in the middle of the BG1 last area script.

Just an idea.

Edit: Also, might it be worth updating the top list as we come up with stuff?

Maybe something like this? http://www.shsforums...showtopic=18559

ronin

Well yes, that's an example of a transition mod. So, that would be easier to code if there were a set scriptfile that is reserved for a transition, whatever that may be.

I can see not requiring TotSC but ToB? Doesn't several new classes, spells, items, and effects all come from ToB?

Unless something in BG1 is gonna require MakeGlobal() then ToB isn't gonna be necessery. I mean its handy for the user if they have Wild Mages etc but they aren't necessery for a conversion.

[ronin]

If you take a look at past posts in the BGT and Tutu forums, you'll find that a significant number of people who don't own TotSC and/or ToB are highly interested in using either BGT or Tutu.

I agree, I had BG and BG2 bought and played thru before I even purchased TotSC and TOB.

ronin

[Grim Squeaker]

Do we think it would be possible in the snazzy new install for it to copy the resources from the disks instead of from seperate installs? That way you don't have a seemingly pointless BG1 install left on your disk? It would do something like this:

- Check you're gonna install Tutu
- Ask you for your BG2 disks in turn and copy/convert files, including basically making a clone install of BG2
- Ask if you want to install ToB features, copying/converting files if necessery
- Ask you for your BG1 disks in turn and copy/convert files
- Ask if you want to install TotSC features, copying/converting files if necessery
- Optional components

If would generally make the Tutu install more friendly I think.

[Ascension64]

Adding requirements without a valid technical reason is poor development practice.

And yeah, sorry, forgot the TotSC post-Sarevok thing. If it's already been addressed in BGT-Weidu, then a well-deserved w00t to KD and Ascension64.

This has been addressed, so thanks.

For my 0.5 cents, I currently despise the language platform used to install TuTu. True, it probably has infinite more potential, but that isn't what we need. I would like to see WeiDU as the primary language for installation so it can easily be modified (it may not be more powerful, but what power is there if a rare number of people can harness it?). Sub-programs in other languages, e.g. C for tis2bg2, etc., are appropriate as required, provided that they DO NOT get updated often and they become final within a maximum of around 4 revisions. We really don't want a situation where people can't change things because the only one who knows the language is too busy/away/uninterested. More later...

[Salk]

I don't understand what "TuTu Spawn Points" means exactly but here I go:

* Remove Spawned Enconunters (new tweak). Personally, I never liked spawned fights. Was it my choice, I'd compeltely take them off the game and I'd only keep random enconunters during travels. Spawned encounters have always given me the idea of deep unrealism and annoyed me quite much.

* User-Friendly Installation (new). MacReady approach to installation is also the way to go(http://forums.pocket...ic,21288.0.html). TuTu's support is a pain in the ass as it's impossible to say if every file needed is present during conversation without making a manual (!!!) filecheck according Ghrey's list...Can't give good support with such trivial system.

* Partial randomization (new tweak) (should be introduced by Ascension64). This is very important for making the game more enjoyable and replayable. Traps disposition first, I guess. Also, and I speak only about the TotSC part here, the Tomes that increase abilities should be randomized from a pool of 20/30 specific places that are somewhat difficult to get to.

* Bugs/fixes direct comparison. This is to make sure that fixes made on TuTu and BGT-WeiDu respectively won't be left behind.


That's all, I suppose...

P.S. By the way, I'd mirror this thread at PPG since it's there that TuTu is...

Edited by Salk, 15 January 2006 - 05:45 AM.

[Thauron]

I can find myself in the list in the first post, apart from the Tutu spawn fixes - just like Salk I don't know what Tutu does at that point, never had any trouble with BGT spawns so... Removing spawns like Salk suggested is a very bad idea, IMO - those maps are already so big and sometimes so empty, even with the spawns.

Especially important is a stable, bugfree and easy to install build - current BGT-Zeta does very good in that department, IMO.

What I would like to add:

Optimal (BGT) compatibility with other mods.

Some things suggested, like Salk's Partial Randomization, should belong in a tweakpack - not in a standard BGT/tutu build.

On TOB/TOTSC: I think it would be great if we could code it so they are not required but can be included as one desires. But tweaking the installation proces like that might not cause a messy or difficult install (like good old non-weidu BP install). So I agree it would be nice if they are not required, but the costs for doing so may not be too high.

Edited by Thauron, 15 January 2006 - 02:06 AM.

[Salk]

I can find myself in the list in the first post, apart from the Tutu spawn fixes - just like Salk I don't know what Tutu does at that point, never had any trouble with BGT spawns so... Removing spawns like Salk suggested is a very bad idea, IMO - those maps are already so big and sometimes so empty, even with the spawns.

Well, our opinions differ substantially here. I don't see why we would feel the need of "filling" empty/big areas (by the way, spawns don't make an area a least bit more interesting to visit) with spawns which is nothing but a declaration of surrender of inventiveness ?
Spawns break the realism in the game and are often a mere nuisance adding absolutely *nothing* to the game plot and fun-wise. I repeat I'd completely remove them, if I could...

Some things suggested, like Salk's Partial Randomization, should belong in a tweakpack - not in a standard BGT/tutu build.

You're right here! In fact, I proposed this under the Tweaks suggestions! My mistake!

Edited by Salk, 15 January 2006 - 03:21 AM.

[Borsook]

I'm really suprised by so many people here failing to see the need of non-expantion support. While of course it would be more convinient for all the players to use absolutely the same platform, the fact is that many, many tutu players do not have e.g. totsc. Which is understandable, Tostsc does not advance the main plot line in any way and can be omitted if someone doesn't care for the provided additions, and TOB does advance the plot but in a way that to many seems quite shameful. I think it would be a real pity to refuse support for non-expantion people. Of course current Tutu model with the expantions not required but recommended and main effort put into the working of the game with expantions is probably a good aproach.